[Design] Character Generation: Detail vs Opportunity Cost

[David Cake]

At 5:31 PM +1100 16/11/05, Kyle Schuant wrote:
>From: <mailto:dave at difference.com.au>David Cake
>There is plenty of room for both. Just as the world has room
>for both Avril Lavigne and jazz.
>
>KS: this is certainly true. However, I just want to strangle at 
>birth the idea that if something's popular, it's no good, or is at 
>least beneath the regard of greater beings such as ourselves. That's 
>nonsense. Nonetheless, it's a nonsense that pops up from time to 
>time, most notably in "The Window" rpg introduction.
>
>DC: And it may even be a universal rule
>of aesthetics that the things that have the most depth and long term
>appeal are usually (though not always) not the most approachable to a
>beginner.
>
>KS: it may be a rule, but I strongly doubt it. There are plenty of 
>D&D campaigns which have gone for a decade in a group. It seems 
>unlikely that "Dogs in the Vineyard" will produce such 
>decade-spanning campaigns. Also, I don't think you can say that any 
>rpg has more long term appeal generally than D&D, since it's been 
>around in one form or another for over thirty years. Take a look at 
>John Kim's Bigass List of RPGs sometime - he's got 1,073 games there 
>at the moment, and lists separately over 500 free rpgs. And of 
>course he's not covered everything, missing out d4-d4 for example;) 
>At a guess I'd say that foreign language rpgs, combined with a few 
>cheap pdf games, make up another 500 rpgs not listed by Kim. That's 
>over 2,000 rpgs out there, published in one format or another. 
>Probably at least 500 of them are still available.
>     How many of them have produced decade-long campaigns? If a 
>decade-long campaign is not a sign of "long term appeal" then I 
>don't know what is.

	A good point, well made. Though really, we know the fun of a 
game group depends more on players and GM rather than system, so D&D 
will produce the majority of such games just through having the great 
majority of game groups. Game rules do make a difference, of course, 
though. Despite its venerable age, I've never heard of ANY game of 
Tunnels and Trolls, for example, that went for a large number of 
years. Sometimes simple is too simple.
	FWIW among games that I know of the longest running by far 
was a D&D game (only finally really stopped a couple of years ago 
after close to two decades of play (mostly semi-regular), but 
RuneQuest games make up several of the other real stayers.

>  Unless, like Ron Edwards and Mike Earls, you suppose that most 
>roleplayers are having a miserable time during most game sessions. 
>To which I say, "maybe in YOUR game groups, fellahs.":)
>

	I think its not so much miserable, more that you spend quite 
a bit of time a little bored waiting for something interesting to 
happen. Which can be a reasonable way of passing a fairly pleasant 
amount of time, rather like cricket :-)
	And, FWIW, actually reflects the reality of the long term D&D 
games I know of quite well. The true high point dramatic moments that 
are really memorable occur only very seldom, but the average days 
play has lots of nitty gritty crunchy combat that is relatively 
absorbing.
	While the Forgeite contention would be that you should be 
aiming for those memorable dramatic moments to happen often in play. 
Which is a reasonable goal, but may actually work against the idea of 
a sustained long term campaign somewhat.


>     Curufea's quite right when he says marketing counts for a lot. 
>Obviously, D&D's WotC can advertise more than some cheap pdf. But 
>Curufea is wrong when he imagines that marketing + development are 
>some fixed sum, and that to strengthen one you must neglect the 
>other. Effort is not a limited resource, in general.

	Absolutely. The best way to get development money is to sell 
games. It is true that marketing and such can constrain development, 
but usually more in time than money. D&D has LOADS of resources put 
into development, but much of it goes into product that can get 
somewhat rushed to market to fit a schedule and may be sometimes 
poorly playtested or padded.

	Cheers
		David