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<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=dave@difference.com.au href="mailto:dave@difference.com.au">David Cake</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Arial size=2>There is plenty of room
for both. Just as the world has room <BR>for both Avril Lavigne and jazz.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Arial size=2>KS: this is certainly
true. However, I just want to strangle at birth the idea that if something's
popular, it's no good, or is at least beneath the regard of greater beings such
as ourselves. That's nonsense. Nonetheless, it's a nonsense that pops up from
time to time, most notably in "The Window" rpg introduction.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><FONT face=Arial size=2>DC: And it may even be a
universal rule <BR>of aesthetics that the things that have the most depth and
long term <BR>appeal are usually (though not always) not the most approachable
to a <BR>beginner.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>KS: it may be a rule, but I strongly doubt it.
There are plenty of D&D campaigns which have gone for a decade in a group.
It seems unlikely that "Dogs in the Vineyard" will produce such decade-spanning
campaigns. Also, I don't think you can say that any rpg has more long term
appeal generally than D&D, since it's been around in one form or another for
over thirty years. Take a look at John Kim's Bigass List of RPGs sometime - he's
got 1,073 games there at the moment, and lists separately over 500 free rpgs.
And of course he's not covered everything, missing out d4-d4 for example;) At a
guess I'd say that foreign language rpgs, combined with a few cheap pdf games,
make up another 500 rpgs not listed by Kim. That's over 2,000 rpgs out there,
published in one format or another. Probably at least 500 of them are still
available.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> How many of them have produced
decade-long campaigns? If a decade-long campaign is not a sign of "long term
appeal" then I don't know what is. Unless, like Ron Edwards and Mike Earls, you
suppose that most roleplayers are having a miserable time during most game
sessions. To which I say, "maybe in YOUR game groups, fellahs.":)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> Curufea's quite right when he
says marketing counts for a lot. Obviously, D&D's WotC can advertise more
than some cheap pdf. But Curufea is wrong when he imagines that marketing +
development are some fixed sum, and that to strengthen one you must neglect the
other. Effort is not a limited resource, in general. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><BR>DC: And there is a difference to appealing
<BR>to players new to RPGs, and players looking for a new game. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">KS: Absolutely. My approach in d4-d4 was to assume
that most people are introduced to games by current gamers, in a sort of
apprenticeship system; but that the shorter the apprenticeship, the more likely
they were to stay in the trade. </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"> Also, new gamers are less fussy
about rules and setting than current gamers, or bitter ex-gamers:)</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Cheers,</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">Kyle</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>